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| (©Ansa) The Pope on the return flight from Turkey |
In the interview Pope Francis gave on the return flight to Rome, he
spoke about interreligious dialogue, asking political leaders, scholars
and Muslim religious figures to speak out against fundamentalist
terrorism. Regarding unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches,
he said that “uniatism” is not the way forward. “I want to go to Iraq“
and “I would like to meet the Patriarch of Moscow”
ANDREA TORNIELLI
correspondent on the flight from Istanbul to Rome
Pope Francis wants to go to Iraq and has not given up on his plan.
He also wants to meet the Patriarch of Moscow. In the interview with
journalists on board the return flight from Turkey to Rome, the Pope
talked about yesterday’s events in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque.
Islamophobia
“It is true that there has been a reaction to these terrorist acts
not just in this region but in Africa as well. “f this is Islam it makes
me angry!” So many Muslims feel offended, they say: “But that is not
what we are, the Quran is a prophetic book of peace, this (terrorism) is
not Islamism.
I can understand this. And I
sincerely believe that we cannot say all Muslims are terrorists, just as
we cannot say that all Christians are fundamentalists – we also have
fundamentalists among us, all religions have these little groups. I told
President Erdogan that it would be good to issue a clear condemnation
against these kinds of groups. All religious leaders, scholars, clerics,
intellectuals and politicians should do this. This way they would hear
it from their leader’s mouth. There needs to be an international
condemnation from Muslims across the world. It needs to say, “no, this
is not what the Quran is about!”. There should also always be a
distinction between what a religion proposes and the concrete use of
that proposal by a concrete government. The way you govern your country
may not be Islamic or Jewish or Christian. The name is often used but
the reality does not reflect what the religion says.”
Christianophobia
“I’m going to speak frankly: (we) Christians are being chased from
the Middle East. In some cases, as we have seen in Iraq, in the Mosul
area, they have to leave or pay a tax that may be unnecessary. Sometimes
they chase us away kindly.”
Interreligious dialogue
“I had what was probably the most wonderful conversation regarding
this with the president for Religious Affairs and his team. When the new
Turkish ambassador to the Holy See came to deliver his letters of
credence, I saw an exceptional man before me, a man of profound
piousness. They said: Now it seems like interreligious dialogue has come
to an end.” We need to raise the bar. We need to bring about a dialogue
between religious figures of different faiths and this is a beautiful
thing: men and women who meet other men and women and share experiences:
it’s not theology we are talking about but experience.”
Prayer in the Mosque
“I went to Turkey as a pilgrim, not as a tourist. And
I went especially for today’s feast celebrated by Patriarch Bartholomew
. When I entered the mosque, I could not say: now I’m a tourist! I saw
that marvellous place; the Mufti explained things very well to me,
showing great meekness; he quoted the Quran when he spoke about Mary and
John the Baptist. At that moment I felt the need to pray.
So I asked him: Shall we pray a little? To which he responded: “Yes, yes”. I prayed for Turkey, for peace, for the Mufti, for everyone and for myself ... I said: Lord, let’s put an end to these wars!
It was a moment of sincere prayer.”
On ecumenism
“Last month, the Metropolitan Hilarion attended the Synod as a
delegate and he spoke to me not as a Synod delegate but as the President
of the commission for Orthodox-Catholic dialogue. We spoke for a while.
I believe we are moving forward in our relations with Orthodoxy, they
have the sacraments and apostolic succession, we are moving forward. If
we wait for theologians to reach an agreement, that day will never
come! I am sceptical: theologians work well but Athenagoras said: “Let
us put theologians on an island to discuss among themselves and we’ll
just get on with things!” Unity is a journey we need to go on together,
it is spiritual ecumenism, praying together, working together. Then
there is ecumenism of the blood: when they kill Christians, bloods mix.
Our martyrs are crying out: we are one. This
is what ecumenism of the blood is. We must follow this path
courageously and carry on moving forward. Perhaps some are not able to
understand this. The Eastern catholic Churches have a right to exist,
but uniatism is a dated word, another solution needs to be found.”
I want to meet the Patriarch of Moscow
“I told Patriarch Kiril, we can meet wherever you want, you call me
and I’ll come. But he has a lot on his plate at the moment what with
the war in Ukraine.
Both of us want to meet and move forward. Hilarion
suggested the commission hold a study meeting on the primacy issue. We
have to continue along the footsteps of John Paul II: help me to find a
solution to the primacy issue that is also acceptable to the Orthodox
Churches.”
The origin of divisions between Churches
“The thing I feel most deeply about on this path toward unity, I
mentioned in yesterday’s homily on the Holy Spirit: the path of the Holy
Spirit is the only right path, he is full of surprises, he is creative.
The problem – and I as I said in the general congregations before the
Conclave this may be self-criticism – is that the Church has the bad
and sinful habit of being too inward-looking, as if it believes it
shines of its own light. The Church does not have its own light, it
needs to look at Jesus christ. Divisions exist because teh Church has
been focusing on itself too much. At table today, Bartholomew and I were
talking about the moment when a cardinal went to communicate the Pope’s
excommunication to the Patriarch: the Church was focusing on itself too
much at that moment.
When one focuses on oneself, one becomes self-referential.”
Primacy in the Church
“The Orthodox accept the primacy: in today’s litanies they prayed for
their pastor and primate, “he who leads the way”. They said this in my
presence today. We have to look back at the first millennium to find an
acceptable solution. I am not saying the Church did everything wrong (in
the second millennium), no, no!
It paved its historic path. But now the way forward is to follow John Paul II’s request.
On the ultraconservatives who look suspiciously at open approaches
“Allow me to say that this problem is not only ours. This is also a
problem they face, the Orthodox, some monks and some monasteries. For
example, ever since the days when the Blessed Paul VI was Pope, there has
been an ongoing discussion regarding the date of Easter and we still
haven’t reached an agreement. At this rate, our great grandchildren risk
celebrating it in August. The Blessed Paul VI had suggested a set date,
a Sunday in April. Bartholomew was courageous: in Finland, where there
is a small Orthodox community, he said they could celebrate on the same
day as the Lutherans. Once, I was in Via della Scrofa, Easter preparations were underway and I heard a member of the Eastern Church
say: my Christ will rise from the dead in a month’s time.
My Christ, your Christ. Problems do exist. But
we must be respectful and not tire of engaging in dialogue, without
insulting others, without dirtying ourselves, without gossiping. If
someone does not want dialogue, well ... But, patience, meekness and
dialogue.”
I want to go to Iraq
“I wanted to go to a refugee camp, but it would have meant staying
one more day and it was not possible for many reasons, not just
personal. So I asked to meet the young refugees that are being looked
after by the Salesians. I would like to take the opportunity to thank
the Turkish government for its generosity. It is generous with refugees.
Do you know what it takes to have to provide healthcare, food, a bed
and a home for one million refugees?
I do want to go to Iraq. I have spoken with Patriarch Sako. For now, it is not possible. If I went right now, it would be a problem for the authorities, for security.”
I did not discuss the EU with Erdogan
“No, we didn’t talk about that. It’s strange, we talked about so many things but not that.”
The third world war and nuclear weapons
“I am convinced that we are experiencing a fragmented third world
war, a war in chapters, everywhere. There are rivalries, political
problems and economic problems behind this, to save this system where
the god called money is at the centre instead of the human person. There
are also commercial interests behind this: arms trafficking is
terrible; it is one of the most powerful businesses right now. In
September last year, there was talk of Syria possessing chemical
weapons: I do not believe Syria is in a position to produce chemical
weapons. Who sold them these? Some of those who accused them of having
them in the first place perhaps? There is a great mystery surrounding
this weapons business. Humanity has not learnt its lesson on nuclear
power. God gave us creation so that we could create culture out of this
lack of culture. Humans did this and discovered nuclear energy which has
many positive uses but they also used it to destroy humanity. This lack
of culture manifests itself in another way too: I don’t want to talk
about the end of the world, but it is a culture which I call “terminal”
culture; then you have to start from scratch again, just as the cities
of Nagasaki and Hiroshima did.”
The Armenian genocide
“On the anniversary of the genocide, when Erdogan was still Turkey’s
prime minister, the Turkish government made a gesture which some
considered too weak. But he was reaching out and this is always
positive. Regardless of whether I hold my hand out a little or a lot,
this is always a positive thing. The Turkish-Armenian border is an issue
that is very close to my heart: it would be wonderful if that border
could be opened! I know there are geopolitical problems that don’t help
things much, but we must pray for this reconciliation among peoples.
Many events have been scheduled for next year to commemorate the
Armenian genocide, let us hope that the path of little gestures will be
followed; small steps toward rapprochement.
The Synod and the contested passages in the Synod’s halfway report
“The Synod is a path, it is a journey. It is not a Parliament, it is a
protected space in which the Holy Spirit may speak. The final report
will not mark the end of the journey either. For this reason, we cannot
just take the opinion of one person or one draft document. Personally, I
disagree with someone publicly saying this person said this. Only what
was actually said should be made public, and this is what happened: the
Synod is not a Parliament. There is a need for protection in order for
the Holy Spirit to speak.”
Source: Vatican Insider
